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 if i dont clip wings will my cockatiel....

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loventhemcockatiels
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PostSubject: if i dont clip wings will my cockatiel....   Sun Sep 23, 2012 7:30 am

i am planning on getting a adult male cockatiel but i dont want to clip his wings because when i had my last birds wings clipped he tried to fly and broke his blood feather and i couldnt stop the bleeding ..the next morning he passed away. anyway if i dont clipp the birds wings will he or can i train him to stay on my shoulder instead of flying all around the room . any help is appreciated thanks. sarah



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PostSubject: Re: if i dont clip wings will my cockatiel....   Sun Sep 23, 2012 7:22 pm

Welcome to the forum!Smile If you really wanna his wings clips,go by a professional.
They have years of experience. Example is an avian vet.Smile

Good luck!

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PostSubject: Re: if i dont clip wings will my cockatiel....   Mon Sep 24, 2012 11:08 pm

loventhemcockatiels wrote:
i am planning on getting a adult male cockatiel but i dont want to clip his wings because when i had my last birds wings clipped he tried to fly and broke his blood feather and i couldnt stop the bleeding ..the next morning he passed away. anyway if i dont clipp the birds wings will he or can i train him to stay on my shoulder instead of flying all around the room . any help is appreciated thanks. sarah

I am sorry you have had a bad experience and lost a loved one because of it.

Clipping is a hot debate. Those that do it defend their actions with claims that they cannot justify.
We have just had Featherpaws on another forum talking about how one of her birds breaks blood feathers as they grow in from being clipped. She had him imped so that he had the other feathers to support the new ones coming in as she was worried about the problem.
Clipped Tiels can still fly, just not that well, and can get hurt due to this. most keel bone damage is to clipped birds crashing and hitting hard surface.
Yes I know some birds fly into windows and die due to neck break and head injuries.
But given the chance to learn they can be taught to fly safely.
So there are pros and cons.
I have six Tiels who live in a glass conservatory. Yes they had to learn, but are very much still alive.

I have taken an avairy reared Tiel and she became one of the most loving girls I could hope to interact with. She was never clipped. So to answer your question! Yes it can be done. But it may take you longer and you will have to work harder. As there will be no dominance involved.
The other thing is how you interact with it will be crucial.
Look up Positive Reinforcement training.

And a bird in flight is just a magic thing. Perfection in motion.

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PostSubject: Re: if i dont clip wings will my cockatiel....   Mon Oct 29, 2012 4:33 pm

@Clawnz,

Mate, many of those claims are perfectly justified! To clip or not to clip, as long as it is done properly, is the bird guardians choice! Please leave your personal opinion out of the debate.

I keep my Peeper in a partial show clip.

A show clip is where the last flight feather on the wing is left intact to act as a guard for all the clipped feathers, to prevent the edges fraying, and to protect blood feathers growing in; it also makes the bird's wings look normal when folded up. The partial clip means the bird can still fly to a degree. In Peeper's case, he still has full flight but slowed down. This is because while our house is bird proof and he has free run of it, he tends to crash into people walking through doors. Lowering the speed at which he can fly makes him safer; I only clip four of his primaries for this.

When I get a new bird I always put them in a partial show clip for the training period, so they can get away from me if they feel frightened and need to but I don't spend hours chasing a bird all over the house. Out of the ten primary flight feathers, I clip 7 on a budgie and 8 on a cockatiel for my temporary training clip, using the "cover" feathers as guidelines (these should never be cut) this lets the bird still be able to fly about 6 feet and can still glide to the ground safely. You have to clip a lot with tiels and budgies because they are very light, strong fliers - with larger parrots you need to do much less. Even in a full clip with all ten feathers cut, they should be able to glide to the ground safely (though nine for a full show clip)

If your tiel could not fly before with clipped wings then someone did a very bad job of it, because with a full clip the bird should still be able to glide and fly short distances. All birds should be fully fledged and learned how to fly BEFORE their first wing clipping, because baby birds just learning have softer, more elastic bones and weaker muscles - they aren't strong enough to hurt themselves from a crash impact - which is why they are supposed to learn in this stage of growth. If a bird has learned how to fly properly and the clip is done CORRECTLY, any bird should be safe in a full clip, because they'll know how to do a controlled glide and manage their limited flights, though I still recommend the show clip for blood feather safety.
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PostSubject: Re: if i dont clip wings will my cockatiel....   Thu Nov 08, 2012 7:09 pm

Kotota Where did this come from?
Quote "Mate, many of those claims are perfectly justified! To clip or not to
clip, as long as it is done properly, is the bird guardians choice!
Please leave your personal opinion out of the debate." Quote

My personal feelings are that No Bird should be clipped without very sound reasons. And there is no such thing as correct clip.
The O.P asked if it was possible to train without clipping? And yes it is. They did not ask if it was correct or not. And they did ask for opinions, so I replied.

Using coercion with any bird training is in no way correct. No matter what you are trying to say.
Love your bird and train it to willingly step up and use target training to get it to do what you want and the results will be a better behaved bird.
yes force does work, but can end up back firing on you. This can end up with a bird that does not give any warnings before biting.
Clipping can lead to many other issues. Like health, chewing the ends of the flight feathers, not allowing new flights to grow in. feather plucking, and crashing due to not being able to land well.
There is good evidence that some birds that have been clipped and then allowed to become flighted fly into things as they have not developed the skills to think on the wing like a bird that has always been flighted.
So Ok you clip to keep your birds safe?

You may not understand Positive Reinforcement Training? And that is why I guess you feel clipping is not handicapping a bird?

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PostSubject: Re: if i dont clip wings will my cockatiel....   Thu Nov 08, 2012 8:08 pm

Yes, it is possible to train without clipping. But chasing your bird around the house for five hours for five minutes worth of training is not worth it, feathers grow back. I was in this situation.

EXCUSE ME!? who the HELL ever said anything about forcing a bird to do anything? Don't you DARE go putting words in my mouth. I never said any such thing! It is the bird's choice when they are done with training, whether their way of telling you so is to fly away or to refuse participation. But untamed birds often fly away for little to no reason because they just plain cannot be bothered with you. Making sure you can retrieve them quickly if they do decide to take off, whatever the reason, is essential to being able to teach them anything. If they flew off because they don't want to do training, they can refuse to do training just as well just refusing. Any trainer who knows ANYTHING about birds knows you can't force it, force simply does not work at all, and will cease trying after the bird refuses in that manner. Just because I said clipping helps with training DOES NOT MEAN I CONDONE FORCE.

IF YOU EVER TRY TO PUT WORDS IN MY MOUTH LIKE THAT AGAIN I WILL BE CALLING ADMINS WITH A HUGE COMPLAINT.

For the record, there IS a such thing as a proper or improper clip. Improper clips can be very dangerous. They clip the wrong feathers, or clip unevenly, or some idiots think that like an egg-laying goose they're supposed to clip skin and wind up injuring the bird. Proper clips are just flight feathers, clipped symmetrically, and leaving enough feathers for the bird to glide safely if it has a "fright flight" which differs from specie to specie.

MY personal feelings is that birds should be allowed free flight once they are trained, because franky, chasing a bird around the house for five hours to get them to sit still for training is dangerous for the BIRD. Apart from that, I wouldn't clip either. (Just a slight one for peeper so he crashes into people more SLOWLY, lol)

But clipping is sometimes the best option for some people. Say you live in a shared apartment setting and irresponsible roommates leave a door open all the time. You can't force responsibility on that person and you couldn't possibly restrict your poor baby to his cage 24/7. The clip is the only option there, or to give up the bird.

I am just trying to say, please leave your personal choices out of advice to other people and just stick with facts and knowledge.

Yes, training can be done without clipping.

No, it's not easy, depending on the bird it can be a living nightmare and a safety hazard.

These are the facts.


Last edited by Nokota on Thu Nov 08, 2012 8:19 pm; edited 2 times in total
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PostSubject: Re: if i dont clip wings will my cockatiel....   Thu Nov 08, 2012 8:10 pm

And Clawnz, my name is not Kotota. Learn how to read, please.
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PostSubject: Re: if i dont clip wings will my cockatiel....   Thu Nov 08, 2012 9:19 pm

Nokota Chasing your bird around the house is using force.
And I can't blame a bird from running away from you by the sound of it.
Where is the love bit?
So yes I do dare to say that. When a bird cannot run away from you or you even chase it and clip it's wings. so that it cannot THIS IS USING FORCE.
I think you need to go to a Parrot Workshop and see that what you claim is the wrong way to train a bird. All the birds that we worked with last Sunday at the zoo, even the wild Keas were not clipped. So yes you do not need to use force or clip.

Take a step back have a fresh look at what you are doing and try telling me again what you are not using force in any of your training?

Please feel free to complain to Lexi.
And i am sorry that I got your name wrong that was not intentional.

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PostSubject: Re: if i dont clip wings will my cockatiel....   Fri Nov 09, 2012 11:18 am

Keeping a pet bird is a free choice. After research, what to feed, to breed or not, to tame or not and to clip wings or not is also and should be the free choice of the bird owner. Living situations are different for each individual and these must be taken into account when making the choice. No one person should chastise another for making whatever choices are made. Especially not in the forum environment where personal opinions, knowledge and experiences are encouraged. Such attacks only serve to turn away posters and stifle the forums of all the good they can do.

My choice for my reasons are to keep my birds wings clipped. I have had many birds of all types and two bird rooms. My birds played all day free on gyms and never suffered any emotional or physical injury from having the flight feathers clipped.

Now I enjoy the company of two cockatiels obtained from a pet shop and previously raised in aviaries. They were bought unclipped. They are both making progress everyday in their taming lessons and I believe little or no progress would have been made if they could simply fly away. The act of chasing and catching to return the birds to their gym or cage would most likely erase any progress that might have been attained. Instead, when they coast to the floor, I can calmly approach and they walk over and step up to be placed again on the gym. My reasons for clipping other than to promote our interaction with each other is: neighbors who visit frequently going in and out the front door, floor to ceiling windows, an open top fish tank and ceiling fans and to be perfectly frank, I especially would not want to have bird poop all over my house. That would not be healthy for me or my birds as I make a constant effort to keep their cage floor and gym clean all during the day. My birds spend the afternoon in the livingroom with me on their gym after being outside in their cage enjoying the sun.

Posts can be worded in such a way as to not antagonize another posters advice or opinion. This is not what I hope to achieve here as clawnz has repeatedly attacked posters on other forums to the point of driving them away, causing anger and hurt feelings everywhere he goes. This is too bad as I was looking for a forum where he wasn't posting, perhaps I'll have better luck where he has been banned.
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PostSubject: Re: if i dont clip wings will my cockatiel....   Fri Nov 09, 2012 6:00 pm

This thread is getting out of hand.

It is now under moderator's watch.Should you two continue to behave in that manner it shall be closed.

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PostSubject: Re: if i dont clip wings will my cockatiel....   Sat Nov 10, 2012 2:11 am

Clawnz

I'm completely done with this. You are ignoring everything I have said about anything and basing your statement on presumptions.

I stated, very clearly, in my very first post, that the bird can still get away from you if it needs to, because even a bird in a full clip (done properly) can fly about five feet and glide safely.

The point is being able to retrieve them safely without stressing them out and tiring them out horribly with a long chase which could get them hurt. I have an open-concept house, there are no doors between many of the rooms.

Whether your goal is to attempt to resume training or put them back in their cage, being able to retrieve an untame bird and prevent them from flying... say, behind the fridge... is essential to safe training.

This might not be necessary if you train your bird in a small room or have low ceilings. Training without clippng does work for some people.

I am just trying to tell you that just because I clip my birds wings for training does not mean that I force them to do anything.

I do basic target and recall training, using a clicker and lots of millet, and then I let their feathers grow in before starting trick training and such, because by then they can recall and are somewhat hand-tame.

Often this kind of thing is unnecessary if you get a hand-raised bird, but mine aren't.

I don't have anything against your ways, I just ask that you don't condemn other people's ways just because you, personally, don't do it like that.

Please stop making assumptions and putting words in my mouth. I am very tired of this. I have said what I am going to say and I'm not going to reply to you anymore.

Thank you, Lexi, for taking note of this, but I'm done posting here anyways. And I might leave the forum myself if people like her keep slandering other forum members.
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